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I don't believe in God, says new Lib Dem chief

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Published Date: 20 December 2007
NICK Clegg, the newly elected Liberal Democrat leader, does not believe in God, he revealed yesterday.
The 40-year-old declared his lack of faith in a radio interview. He also declined to say whether he had ever taken drugs, citing the Tory leader David Cameron's argument that politicians had the right to privacy over what they did before they entered public life.

Mr Clegg said he was not an "active believer" but, like former prime minister Tony Blair, he is married to a Catholic and has committed himself to bringing up his children as Roman Catholics.

Asked directly in the interview on BBC Radio 5 Live, "Do you believe in God?", Mr Clegg replied simply: "No."

Later, he said he had "enormous respect" for people with faith and added: "I'm married to a Catholic and am committed to bringing my children up as Catholics. However, I myself am not an active believer, but the last thing I would do when talking or thinking about religion is approach it with a closed heart or a closed mind."

Asked if he had ever taken illegal drugs, he said: "I'm going to cast a veil over that. It's the one thing I agree with David Cameron on. I think politicians are entitled to a private life before they go into politics."

Keith Porteous Wood, the executive director of the National Secular Society, praised Mr Clegg for his honesty about his beliefs.

He said: "I do not think that he should be disadvantaged because of the fact that he does not believe…Some people who represent religious institutional views may try to make his political life difficult as a result of that."

In a round of interviews to mark his elevation to the Lib Dems' top job, the Sheffield Hallam MP and former MEP spoke of the "message of optimism, energy and ambition" that he wanted people to associate with his party.

He also unveiled Brian Eno, of Roxy Music, as his adviser on youth affairs.

Mr Clegg, the Lib Dems' third leader in two years, has left people in no doubt that education will be near the top of his agenda, and he used a visit to a school in London to launch an attack on both Labour and the Conservatives, claiming two-party politics in Britain was "dying on its feet".

In an apparent bid to shake off comparisons with Mr Cameron, he accused the Tory leader of pursuing "the politics of presentation" and dismissed his proposals for tax incentives for married couples as "naive and patronising".

"Much more importantly, it shuts out the millions of people who do not live their lives like that," he said.

Mr Clegg seized the leadership on Tuesday after a ballot of party members, beating off his rival, Chris Huhne, by an ultra-slim margin of a little over 500 out of more than 40,000 votes cast.

He is expected to give Mr Huhne a top job in his front-bench reshuffle, which is due to be unveiled today.

Clegg

FAMILY LIFE

Nick Clegg met his future wife, Miriam González Durántez, while they were studying at the College of Europe in Bruges, Belgium. They married in September 2000. He is said to have learned Spanish while they were courting. They live in staid, middle-class Putney, south-west London, with their two young sons, who speak both Spanish and English. After the birth of their first child, Mr Clegg took a long paternity leave so that his wife could return to work first.

EDUCATION AND BACKGROUND

Ms González Durántez's mother is a science teacher and her father was a conservative senator in the Spanish parliament. Mr Clegg's mother, a special-needs teacher, is Dutch and came to Britain as a child following incarceration in a Japanese prisoner-of-war camp in Indonesia. His half-Russian father is a banker; his aristocratic grandmother fled St Petersburg after the tsar was ousted. Raised in Buckinghamshire, Mr Clegg was educated at Westminster School and went on to study social anthropology at Cambridge. He won a postgraduate scholarship to the University of Minnesota, where he studied the political philosophy of green campaigners.

HER CAREER

Ms González Durántez is an international lawyer and has worked as an expert on the Middle East peace process at the Foreign Office.

FAMOUS FRIENDS

The television presenter Louis Theroux is a good friend of the Cleggs: they once took a road trip across North America together. He is also close to the film director Sam Mendes, the husband of Kate Winslet, and he once acted opposite Helena Bonham-Carter in a university play.

STYLE

Nigella Lawson lookalike Ms González Durántez favours conservative chic – polo necks and pearl earrings – but she didn't get it quite right at the leadership announcement on Tuesday, opting for a black suit and a floral shirt. She shops at Zara on the high street. Mr Clegg prefers a fairly sombre suit, almost always with a blue tie. Not the most individual dresser, his floppy, public-school fringe is probably his most distinguishing characteristic.

FREE TIME

During his gap year, Mr Clegg worked as a ski instructor in Austria; he is an expert skier. He speaks five languages and counts reading and going to the theatre among his interests. The couple enjoy hiking in the Peak District, and also holiday at her parents' house in Spain.

Cameron

FAMILY LIFE

The Camerons met through Samantha's sister while at university. They have three children: Ivan, Nancy and Arthur. Ivan, five, was born with cerebral palsy and severe epilepsy. The couple have homes in both Notting Hill, west London, and Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire.

EDUCATION AND BACKGROUND

She is the eldest daughter of Sir Reginald Sheffield, 8th baronet, an old Etonian landowner. Her parents divorced after five years and her mother married another old Etonian, William Astor, 4th Viscount Astor. After initially saying she was raised "near Scunthorpe", it was revealed that, to be more specific, she grew up on her father's 300-acre Normanby Hall estate, which has been in the family since 1590. She went to the private School of St Helen and St Katharine in Abingdon, then Marlborough College in Wiltshire, and studied fine art at Bristol Polytechnic. Her husband grew up in Berkshire with his stockbroker father and his mother, Mary Fleur Mount, the second daughter of Sir William Malcolm Mount, 2nd baronet. He went to Eton, then studied philosophy, politics and economics at Oxford.

HER CAREER

Samantha is co-owner of Oka, her mother's interior-design shop in Notting Hill, and creative director of the stationery and leather goods firm Smythson of Bond Street.

FAMOUS FRIENDS

When supermodel Kate Moss asked Cameron for his phone number, he must have thought it was too good to be true. It was; she merely wanted him to do something about her flooded weekend house in Oxfordshire. However, he can console himself with the fact that Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Cole has admitted to having a crush on him. His wife, on the other hand, was a celebrity schmoozer from a young age. She was friends with hip-hop star Tricky during her days at college in Bristol.

STYLE

Cameron is famous for his green ties and for donning a pair of Converse trainers and an open-necked shirt. His wife is regularly seen in Topshop outfits, which she often teams with a £1,000 bag from, of course, Smythson. She was on the cover of Harpers Bazaar in August 2007, but loses style points for a dolphin tattoo on her ankle.

FREE TIME

We all know he enjoys cycling, but he's also a fan of stag hunting. The Camerons take regular family holidays on the vast estate belonging to her stepfather, Viscount Astor, on Jura, where deer outnumber people by 30 to one.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 19 December 2007 10:26 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Liberal Democrats
 
1

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 00:04:40
God said he ain't bothered.
2

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 00:17:33
Nicol Stephens has renounced his faith in Santa in favour of the tooth fairy.
3

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 00:19:00
3 Is that like a pantry Christian?
4

brian mcc,

the arctic 20/12/2007 00:34:29
Recently, I have been involved in discussions upon the meaning of the word 'prod.' In N. Ireland, the word has racist connotations. Define it as a protestant.

In its literal sense, means Godless.

Godless.
5

Maisie from Morningside,

20/12/2007 01:01:15
I wonder if God believes that Nick Clegg exists.
6

Scullion,

Canada 20/12/2007 01:01:56
Although his candour is refreshing (try saying what he did in the U.S.A. and expect any political life), he really should rethink his postion as he'll need a miracle to get this moribund party back on its feet.
7

,

20/12/2007 02:26:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Eric D,

Belgium 20/12/2007 02:27:53
A typical sanctimonious fib dem. He doesn't believe in God. Is there anything he believes in other than the westminster gravy chain, I wonder.
9

Snowbird,

toronto 20/12/2007 04:36:02
They always seem believe in God at the end
10

Chic Young,

Paisley 20/12/2007 05:00:11
'Nigella Lawson lookalike Ms González Durántez favours Conservative Chic'

Ho, ho, ho, I'm getting a ferr bit excited now!
11

Chic Young,

Paisley 20/12/2007 05:00:57
'Nigella Lawson lookalike Ms González Durántez favours Conservative Chic'

Ho, ho, ho, I'm getting a ferr bit excited now!
12

Pete40,

Tassy 20/12/2007 06:08:18
Not too exciting a comment. However does God believe in the Lib Dems. Possibly, he has the reputation of being a compassionate kind of guy.
13

Media 1,

cape town 20/12/2007 06:10:19
We have a long way to go before we rid our societies of this evil god nonsense.
It should be more difficult for him to succeed in politics by claiming his belief in god, than it should by denouncing god.
Mind you, maybe he is to something. The five most vocal religious leaders of our time are all murdering, terrorising, deceitful scum.
Bush, Blair, Olmert, Hussein and Bin Laden! So maybe it is time that we had a world run from a non religious point of view, thus peace will prevail and that word god will disappear from our vocabulary..
14

Mikey,

20/12/2007 06:49:27
Hey Media1, what Hussein would that be?
15

qohldr,

20/12/2007 06:54:29
The way some people post on here you would think Alex Salmond was God.
16

Evan Owen,

Dyffryn Ardudwy 20/12/2007 07:20:01
Not only do I not believe in a 'God', I don't believe in politicians either.

Go on, strile me down...
17

missing home,

la verne 20/12/2007 07:27:26
17...he isn't???
18

Blues Brother,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 07:29:23
Duh!!!!! He does nor believe in God but he is bringing his children up as Catholics? So he is allowing them to be brought up in something that he does not believe in......so little ones run off to Church/Chapel with mummy while I stay at home and cook the Sunday Roast.....but why are you not coming with us daddy? Well its the only way I could get mummy to marry me!!!
19

Media 1,

cape town 20/12/2007 07:29:26
Bush, Blair, Olmert, Bin Laden, All the Popes(from the bloodthirsty terrorising ones through to the modern day supporters of those past barbarians)Arafat, Bush Senior, David Koresh (The powerful Cult Leader)Charles Manson(The man who spoke with god)Mind you, what Manson did was small fry in comparison to that of the god entity in the old testament. According to the bible, the god entity murdered 2.6 million people, whereas the devil killed 12. Food for thought!
All the Muslim fanatacists are god fearing people! The suicide bombers are really religious, and believe in god. Yes, we are surrounded by the believers and their barbaric methods of governance, leadership and community development. I am glad Mr Clegg has dispensed his position regarding his belief system. It is refreshing to note that there is still some sensible people in politics.
20

Media 1,

20/12/2007 07:33:03
#20 Blues Brothers
I imagine his exact words were taken out of context.
I think what he is saying, is that whilst he is an athiest or an agnostic, his children are not indoctrinated to believe in his belief system. The wife is a practicing catholic and her belief system appears to the one that is taking preference. Thus the religious person in the relationship is indoctrinating the kids, whilst the non believer is not...Go figure!
21

Blues Brother,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 07:35:39
Media1.....does one have to practice really hard to be a Catholic?
22

Media 1,

cape town 20/12/2007 07:41:38
Blues Brothers
I would say that living life as a dedicated catholic would take a bit of practice. Off-course, naming oneself as Catholic but then doing nothing to compliment that religious position is in essence, not catholic at all, but merely a mindset passed down from the generation before. If you are truly catholic you must live your life as such, half measures are nothing more than false pretence.
So yes, practice makes perfect and people who are practicing Catholics do it perfectly! And good for them, they believe in something and follow that belief without wavering from their chosen path....
23

juan kerr and his dead magic hands, now re risen.,

20/12/2007 07:44:06
I don't Believe in The Liberal Democrats. I hold their story in the same regard as St.Peters at this time of year.

#6 - OK! Who let the catholic version of Ian Paisley in?
24

Media 1,

cape town 20/12/2007 07:47:45
But lets not get away from the topic by turning this into a catholic vs protestant thing..
The man said he did not believe in god, but his wife did, and she took the kids to church with her..Bottom line, he is a politician who does not believe in god. And based on the religious worshipping positions of the terrorists Bush, Blair, Bin Laden,Olmert and the rest, it is refreshing to note that we have a peace loving non believer in British politics.
25

Stephen101,

God votes SNP 20/12/2007 07:56:02
It is a well known fact that God supports the SNP, and is FOR independence for Scotland.

Over to you AM2.

26

Food snob,

20/12/2007 08:11:22
Good on him for admitting he doesn't believe in religious claptrap.

More fool him for allowing his children to be indoctrinated at school
27

A Better Way,

20/12/2007 08:17:32
Of course God is in favour of Independance for his People, and we thankyou very much Nicol for making it sooner.

Now as far as the Eton boy is concerned, he is just another gold digger, who knew exactly what he was doing when he married his rich wifes money. After all it would save the LibDums from ever getting caught taking illegal donations like wee fat Wendy the gob. His wifes family have owned large estates since 1590. It might be time to check the history books and public records to find out who he betrayed to get these lands. Compulsory purchase order may be required to put any of these lands stolen at the expense of the Scottish People. Lets say 30 p an acre. Like the clearances they should be allowed the clothes they stand up in and to be marched to the border or a ship to Australia.
28

GavFaeMonty,

Oot o' meh tree 20/12/2007 08:21:54
"He also unveiled Brian Eno, of Roxy Music, as his adviser on youth affairs."

Eh???? Brian Eno must be 60!

And, well done on the no-god thing.


29

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 08:27:57
Well 'more-fool-him'!, hr will be under 'God's wrath now!
Believe or not, NOT something I would 'shout' about!
You just never know!
I suppose we will all be 'watching his space now'?
30

Ken,

20/12/2007 08:31:45
#32
Yes, I had to read that twice. Brian Eno, indeed. He should also be the adviser on Cleggs wardrobe,it would brighten up this increadabily dull lib leader.
31

tomfrom66,

Thornton Cleveleys 20/12/2007 08:38:17
Is this really what political debate has come down to? There seemed to be nothing else of Radio 5 this morning!

Of much greater relevance was episode 3 of Bliar on the BBC the other week when, as many of us suspected, it emerged that He and God talked a lot and, guess what, God was in favour of attacking Iraq.
32

Geoff,

South africa 20/12/2007 08:38:23
Nick Clegg-good British stock!
The 'God' thing-perhaps we confuse 'God' and religion. I would agree with Media 1's assesment of most religiose people -pious,self righteous,hypocritical,chauvinistic,condescending,smug are a few words that come to mind. On the other hand I have some friends who believe in God in their own quiet ways,dont try to ram their beliefs down your throat and genuinely try to lead'good' lives whilst recognising their faults. The simple question-"Do you believe in God?" is utterly meaningless. If it means"Do you think God has a great white beard and lives up their in the sky?" then I think most of us would say "No". But if you say that "Existence IS" and recognise that it has incredible complexity and unexplainable mystery, then "God" is self evident-only a fool would deny what stares us in the face. And then there is lots of stuff in between.
Clegg was probably elected because he is better looking than the other lad. Call me cynical.
Politicians-all pretty much the same.
33

Iain fae Elgin,

London 20/12/2007 08:48:32
Given that the Lib Dems couldn't become the second party in Britain even when the Conservatives were imploding means that it will remain irrelevant what any leader of them believes in...very few people are listening.
34

Dubbie,

Here 20/12/2007 08:52:14
#38 - I think Geoff meant Good South British Stock :-)
35

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 20/12/2007 08:52:20
yawwwwwwwwwwwn
36

thinking,

Scotland 20/12/2007 08:52:52
#7
I don't get your reasoning.
How can belief and/or communication with God mean He doesn't exist?
You have communicated with this forum, does that mean you don't exist?
37

Courtney,

East Molesey 20/12/2007 08:56:06
Another Walter Mitty!
38

Geoff,

South africa 20/12/2007 09:02:18
37 Dave-I was being sarkie about the'British' bit-all russian and Dutch if you read his bio!
38 Rulesbutnotrulers(cant u get a shorter name?) nothing tautological here. What I meant was,given two broad possibilities-existence ends with the demise of the Universe and was but a fleeting aberation-thereafter black nothing or,more likely everything in the Universe and beyond exists and always has and always will ie Existence simply IS. The latter state would in my book be overwhelming evidence for the existence of"God" although I dont know what he,she,it is!
39

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 20/12/2007 09:04:29
What's Wendy's views on this important story?
40

donald,

glasgow 20/12/2007 09:04:40
Whit aboot the head o' the Church off Ingerland? She's a god.)
41

Geoff,

South africa 20/12/2007 09:08:09
Nick Cleggs belief/non belief in God doesnt really mean much. Of much more interest but maybe not for this forum is the LibDems pursuit of proportional representation! personally I favour this system combined with free voting,not tied to Party lines on all issues.
David-the Western Isles ah the Western Isles! What a place-pity you couldnt combine it with our weather!
42

Geoff,

South africa 20/12/2007 09:08:11
Nick Cleggs belief/non belief in God doesnt really mean much. Of much more interest but maybe not for this forum is the LibDems pursuit of proportional representation! personally I favour this system combined with free voting,not tied to Party lines on all issues.
David-the Western Isles ah the Western Isles! What a place-pity you couldnt combine it with our weather!
43

McMillar,

Fife 20/12/2007 09:14:52
Well at least he has some news! Good answer and at least he’s not being a complete hypocrite about this topic like most. Heard him interviewed on radio last night and sounded ‘ok’ but did backtrack slightly on the religion question. Yeah/but/no/but/yeah. Does he believe in Nicol Stephen? Or is he the ghost of politics past.
44

Flash67,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 09:16:52
Well done to him - although I don't think it is what Sir Humphrey Appleby would describe (in Civil Service parlance) as "brave" i.e. suicidal. Nowadays, as more people are nominally or actually secular, it could be a vote winner.
45

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 20/12/2007 09:19:35
George W. Bush collected many votes by feigning a belief in God. Nick Clegg has lost a lot of support among the God botherers.
46

IainA,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 09:20:29
Who cares if Nick Clegg doesn't believe in God? God maybe, certainly not me.
47

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 20/12/2007 09:21:47
That Could have massive repercussions for the Insurance industry if the fib dems ever come to power. Act of Clegg would need to be cited.
48

Ally,

London 20/12/2007 09:26:09
Gives me hope for the future of this country. At least we don't have candidates vying for high office who believe the Earth's only 6000 years old and was knocked up in a week.
49

Annlass,

Toronto, ON 20/12/2007 09:28:24
God is too busy to worry over it! He is now working full-time in the U.S.A. converting convicts and electing Republicans and spending his Sundays with George Bush.
50

BIG EYE,

Paisley 20/12/2007 09:31:25
What a pity as if anyone needed a miracle it surely must be the Lib dems.
51

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 20/12/2007 09:34:29
Nigella Lawson lookalike? Gerri needs to go to specsavers
52

Boy Wonder,

20/12/2007 09:37:59
So he doesn't believe in a god. Neither do I ... so that's a point in his favour.

His wife is religious and their kids are being brought up religious and go to Mass on a Sundy ... Now what other famous person does that as well??

I know!!! HOMER SIMPSON!

So Clegg is Homer Simpson ... without the genius of Homer!


53

iain morrison,

nairn 20/12/2007 09:44:11
Only a proficient fence sitter could not believe in God and bring his sprogs up Catholic - prooves "Calamity Clegg" is a true LIB-Dum
54

Nellie,

Liverpool 20/12/2007 09:44:46
Never quite understood the logic in the statement "I don't believe in God." Does it mean "I don't believe in the EXISTENCE of God"? Is that what he means? Because it is quite possible not to believe on the existence of God while believing there is a God. That's because if you believe in the existence of God you must accept the logical possibility that God may NOT exist. On the other hand if you believe God is something infinite then God can neither exist or not exist; He always is.
Anyway, does he mean he doesn't believe in the kind of God that is accepted as being by the Christians, who sits like some bigger Father Christmas giving out the toys to the good and not to the bad?. Or is it the slightly different, less personal God of the Muslims? And then, what about the other theories of a God, such as the idea that God is everything and everything is God, that all individuality is an illusion, just perpetually changing different states or manifestations of the same thing, the one (or One?) infinite energy? So, what IS meant by "I don't believe in God"?
All answers on a post card to Nick Clegg at Liberal Democrat HQ, not The Scotsman or me.
55

Agent 99,

20/12/2007 09:50:02
[17] qohldr: They're mistaken. All right thinking people know Clapton is God.
56

Privateman,

Anywhere but here 20/12/2007 10:00:24
Of course this shouldn't be news, but regrettably it is. Why? Because the likes of Blair, Bush, Clinton, etc make great play of the part "god" plays in their lives and how they're "born again" (yeah, right), whilst seeming conveniently to ignore some of the most basic tenets of their professed christian faith.

As for those who think the LibDems don't matter, how are we to get out of the two-party system if there is no viable alternative, third party? Ultimately, it may not be the LibDems, but we ought at least acknowledge they were the only UK party against the invasion of Iraq for example when Tory and Labour cannon fodder marched through the yes lobby.
57

The Lurgan Tiger,

20/12/2007 10:05:45
It would seem that Media 1 believes that all those who do not beleive in God are fine upstanding pillars of society who do not commit crime, acts of barbarism or evil.

If thats the case we should all renounce our beliefs and wee can all live in his laa laa land of peace and fairness.
58

G,

dundy 20/12/2007 10:07:18
At least he is honest. In this, anyway.

All the other politicos try not to mention God or try to pretend they are as normal as possible.
Some like Tony Blair are obviously believers because they must be getting some kind of higher guidance to make the decisions they make
Others, like Alec Salmond, probably believe in God but think that he has a lesser understanding of issues....
59

Seaforth,

20/12/2007 10:18:24
I'm pleased he is honest.
60

Andrah,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 10:18:55
50# Does he believe in Nicol Stephen? If asked, Clegg would probably reply --- "Who?"
61

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 20/12/2007 10:25:57
So will taking politics back to the people mean giving them a vote on independence? Or might that be too risky?
62

AJ Fife,

20/12/2007 10:35:40
So Cleggie is a disciple of Satan....par for the course with the Libdems!
63

Dick Lynas,

Glasgow 20/12/2007 10:39:01
Don't worry about it Nick. God believes in you.
64

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/12/2007 10:47:19
I've never understood why Bush/Blair are seen as christian. Sure they mention God, but both Bush and Blair use 4 letter words of the swearing type all the time. It was my understanding that christians didn't do that sort of thing.

So neither of them appear to have any genuine devotion - so I assume its political expedience, rather than something genuinely personal.
65

Doh,

20/12/2007 10:57:53

Reminds me of the old joke,
I dont mind people that speak to God
but I do get worried when the say he speaks back.

There must be a God because he gave us the free will
to disbelieve opinion polls.
66

thinking,

Scotland 20/12/2007 10:59:57
#62
'tangential, esoteric concept'
What on earth does that gobbledy gook mean?
I'm not going to get into a theological arguement but to me, and to many others, God is a real person and so is Jesus Christ.
#55
'believe the Earth's only 6000 years old'
As a Christian I cetainly don't believe the earth was built in 6000 years simply because we don't actually know. The English translation days referred to in the Bible mean, from what I understand, time periods (length unspecified)
67

Media 1,

cape town 20/12/2007 11:20:10
The question is all wrong. Lets take a look at it.

"Do you belive in god" By using the word god, we have already given the entity some recognition.

Perhaps the question should be. "What is your belief system concerning the complexities of the universe"?

But that would be too drawn out. We need to find a new question, and then coin it as a popular phrase..

Any suggestions
68

Media 1,

cape town 20/12/2007 11:25:55
Geoff was right.

When the question is posed. "Do you believe in god" Usually that means, "do you believe there is an old man in the sky with a long white beard looking down on us from a throne within a kingdom known as heaven"?

The answer to that, must always be no. Because to admit that you believe in that sort of fantasy wold constitute the men in white coats at your front door.

Therefore, reducing the sentence to "do you believe in god" society is able to avoid the ludicrous imagery in the question above in order to focus on the more spiritual aspect of the question.

It is the word "god" that causes the confusion! Therefore, a new question is required!
69

yolanda,

mid calder 20/12/2007 11:28:13
I don't care whether he believes in God or not. I know several people who don't, but are good people. I also know people who profess to be religious, do the churchy bit on a Sunday, but are not particularly good people. There's nothing wrong with not believing in God. What matters is whether a person behaves in a decent and moral fashion and respects other peoples' views. I'm glad he was honest in answering the question. As for the drugs question, he was right not to answer that too. it has no bearing on his ability to do the job.
70

Media 1,

cape town 20/12/2007 11:31:16
Spook

Thats not bad!

What about this one.. "Do you live to live or do you live to die" ?

Meaning, do you live knowing this is it, or do you live expecting something else folowing this life"?

It's all in the question
71

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 20/12/2007 11:31:59
96 posts on a non story on the Lib Dems, not much else for the nat frat to-day?
72

AJ Fife,

20/12/2007 11:32:03
Yolanda,

You still have the most exotic name on the Scotsman message boards!

Do you think Cleggie, while spliffed out his nut and sacrificing live chickens, is the right man for the job?
73

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 20/12/2007 11:32:21
98 now
74

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 20/12/2007 11:32:36
101
75

Geoff,

20/12/2007 11:33:26
70 Rules-I agree,God has to be everything or at least in charge of everything but again we run into some difficulties-in an infinite(whatever that might be) universe,what is everything. As to beginnings and ends,existence cant have a beginning or end-what was before/after these events which makes me suspect that a partial answer may lie in our perception of time as a linear phenomenon-ie time is one of the illusions-a linear time doesnt work-we live in a constant now slipping in and out of parralel universes. Time is like a plastic coke bottle caught in the recycle of a weir-endlessly turning round and round.
Zuma is a problem-still thinking of that one.

the press love to throw these silly questions at political leaders. Forward the Federal Kingdom of great Britain and Northern Ireland!!
76

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 20/12/2007 11:41:20
#105 ????
77

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 20/12/2007 11:42:56
#108 Are you OFF your head
78

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/12/2007 11:43:35
#90 wrote:
'and refuse to accept that when you die you die.'

Err can't you see that you too seem to be 'believing' too? You accept as 'true' that when we die - that's it.

But we don't know if conciousness survives or not.

Your position of 'when we die we die' is as much a belief as 'when we die we still live on'.
79

yolanda,

20/12/2007 11:45:51
#99, Hi AJ, how you doin'?

I suppose it depends on who you compare him to. I'd say that even spiffed out his nut and sacrificing chickens he's a better bet than some of our other politicians!
80

Media 1,

cape town 20/12/2007 11:46:38
Spook

I agree. I also have difficulty with the question "do you believe in god"

Because I must accept that what the question REALLY means. "Is do I believe in an old man in the sky with a big white beard looking down on me from a throne in the sky within a place called heaven"

I cannot believe in such proposperous nonsense! So like you, I accept that the universe is a very unusual and complex place, and then do my best to behave in a respectable manner! I dont know the answers, nobody does. Which is why I find the question "do you believe in god" to be both ignorant and very one dimensional..
81

yolanda,

20/12/2007 11:47:52
Sorry, spliffed (not me, my typo earlier!)
82

AJ Fife,

20/12/2007 11:50:35
Hi Yolanda,

As a Liberal he's duty bound to have a skeleton or two rattling about, so it'll be interesting to see what the tabloids like the Scotsman rake up!!

If a bit of drug taking and Devil worship are his only dubious habits, he'd be the cleanest living Liberal politician ever!:)
83

Geoff,

sa 20/12/2007 11:52:17
108 Marie antoinette-therein lies the only possibility of an independent goodness in mankind-the willingness to do things that benefit other individuals or society as a whole without any certainty of reward. Some of us know intuitively that the quest is the 'right thing to do' to use an old phrase.
84

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 20/12/2007 11:53:14
#120 In The former Soviet Union, Communist China,and Cambodia they had organised irreligion and it was regressive, inhibited science, and was divisive.
85

yolanda,

20/12/2007 11:53:17
I'm sure you're right AJ. We'll probably find out later that he had a one night stand with Wendy Alexander or something equally unsavory.
86

Geoff,

SA 20/12/2007 11:54:27
Love that old line from anearly BS&T; album-
'Swear there ain't no Heaven,but I pray there ain't no Hell!!"
87

Mcsnagpile,

20/12/2007 11:55:30
If I were Lib Dem I would not believe in God either.
88

AJ Fife,

20/12/2007 11:57:00
Yolanda#127,

You've gone too far with that....how can you be so sick?

I remember Jack Mcconnell wanting to introduce a uniform for all Labour MSPs, but Wendy was a special case - she was getting fitted out with a giant dufflecoat and a gas mask!:)
89

Publius,

London 20/12/2007 11:58:03
As others have pointed out God doesn't believe in the libdems either so that makes them even. More to the point how can a man who went to a public school, was employed by the Brussels bureacracy, became an MEP and, as an adult, has spent more time on the continent than in the UK know anything about the lives of ordinary people in England, let alone Scotland?
90

Allan(handofgod137),

20/12/2007 12:00:34
Who cares? He's a total nonentity in charge of a bunch of irrelavent buffoons.
91

Cauchy Riemann,

20/12/2007 12:03:30
#121 wrote:
"115 - it's called science mate."

No its not. Science deals with physically measurable things. It therefore has nothing to say on life after death.

The proposition: 'There is life after death' is every much a belief as 'There is no life after death'.

They are beliefs. The reality is we don't know. If you make a definitive statement either way it is a belief.

#123
Actually there is some tentative support for consciousness existing after being clinically dead.

for example
http://www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/9278005cp.shtml

I also remember reading a study from a UK university concerning those who were clinically dead and were then revived - I'll see if I can find it later. I'm certainly not claiming these are proofs - only that there is some tentative support for something more than a purely physical body.
92

Media 1,

cape town 20/12/2007 12:03:56
Do you believe that there is an old man in the sky who invented all the universes and has lived for almost 7 billion years?
Do you believe he has a throne that offers him a birds eye view of all 500 trillion billion billion billion light years of space?
Do you believe that he sent a long haired man in robes to die for the sins of others on a pin head of a planet within that mass of space and inter gallactic matter?
Do you believe that the man in robes was only sent to this one planet among the billion trillion trillion trillion light years of space?
Do you believe the man in robes rose from the death in the human form and went to live in this heavenly place beside the 7 billion year old old man on his throne in the sky among the billions of stars and gallaxies?

No wonder the question is "do you believe in god" Jines crivvens

93

Media 1,

cape town 20/12/2007 12:05:55
Spook

I was reading that post about Salmond and Trump, and it came to me..

The question "do you believe in god" can be replaced with " do you believe in a celestial chief planner"
94

S Hamilton,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 12:06:51
So he will be giving all the Christian votes back, and standing down as party leader then.

Oh, of course not, he's a career politician who just lies his way through life. Bandit.
95

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 20/12/2007 12:07:20
#138 No not neccessarily, does it make politics a good thing?
#137 Who God?
96

Shave,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 12:07:49
They used to stone the heathens. Though, being a LibDem, he has been stoned many, many times before (probably). ;-)
97

Media 1,

Cape Town 20/12/2007 12:12:56
Spook

I can see it already! "do you believe in Vlad" That omnipotent ruler who lives somewhere else and occassionally interferes, but doesnt actually interfere!

In all seriousness though! It is a shocking indictment on society that a politician who does not believe in god, makes the news......
98

thinking,

20/12/2007 12:14:48
#89 teaching of evolution?
It should be taught as a theory - Darwin's theory of evolution - alongside creationism, to give students both views. They can then make up their own minds
#91 You have it the wrong way round, we are made in His image. Jesu said, 'if ye have seen me ye have seen the Father' because he looks like His Father
#96
'it is the duty of any human being to do more good with their life than harm... I am personally responsible for all my own actions.'
I agree on the above
'it is only in the 'now' that we exist.'
Life does not end with the death of the body
'nothing happens until you get off your knees.'
Prayer without action is meaningless but that does not mean we can't seek help from God (no good of we don't believe enough to seek)
#134
If you do not believe in Jesus why use His name?
99

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 20/12/2007 12:17:20
#156 Watching the wee parly are you?
100

Southern Cross,

20/12/2007 12:17:31
Amazing how some people feel so threatened by someone giving an honest opinion - just because it doesn't coincide with theirs.

It's not unusual, irrational or criminal not to believe i god.
101

psycho,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 12:18:51
I think he should believe in something given the stress he will experience as Nicol really gets going as the party s man in Scotland.He is quite sensational -he has raised the profile of the party substantially in the business community in the North East recently
102

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/12/2007 12:24:02
"Let's say that there is "life" after death for the sake of argument. How is that proof of a God ? Could it be some continuation of Nature that we dont understand "

Sure - even if there was life after death that in itself wouldn't prove any kind of existence of Diety.

I'm merely pointing out that definitively stating 'there is no life after death' is as much a belief as 'there is life after death'.

#151 I'm not claiming the link provided and talking about clinical death is proof of life after death. There is however a suggestion (but not proof) of something more.

If one is clinically dead then there is no recordable brain activity. Yet people were aware of things happening in the real world. But if there was no recordable brain activity how could they hear? How could they even see anything?

This is suggestive that consciousness is not just present in the physical brain.

Ayreshire scot wrote:
"People may have a period of cardiac arrest, or hypoxia and be resuscitated. they were not "dead" - just not breathing or with beating hreats, temporarily. Loss of consciousness occurs within minutes of stopping breating, or within seconds of the blood supply being cut off to the brain. It is a state of unconsciouness, not death, and can be reveresed if blood supply/ oxygen supply is restored before irreversible brain damage occurs."

No - we are talking of clinical death here. What you described above is NOT clinical death. Clinical death means zero brain activity - not just unconsciousness.
103

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/12/2007 12:31:48
By zero brain activity I mean no recordable activity recorded on an EEG. Zilch - completely flat.
104

yolanda,

20/12/2007 12:35:36
#146 Why should he hand back Christian votes and stand down? What's a Christian vote anyway?
105

Helen,

20/12/2007 12:36:10
Well I always voted LibDem in the absence of a Green candidate but not any more. I will not vote for an atheist. As a Christian I believe we need Christians in government.
106

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/12/2007 12:36:46
I also agree that there might be brain activity not recorded by an EEG.

The problem still remains on how people can hear or see something happening when recording zero brain activity. These functions are normally associated with activity recordable by an EEG.
107

Shave,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 12:44:10
#180

As a non-Christian I believe we need crusaders, zealots, fantasists, fanatics and war-mongers out of government.
108

Calum Crubag,

20/12/2007 12:55:17
At least something lots of us can agree with the Lib Dems on - there is no God.
109

kimba,

20/12/2007 12:59:06
Ayrshire/meths,laugh now,but one day you will meet your maker,and guess what, if he/she has any sense you will have a date with Beelzebub!
110

kimba,

20/12/2007 12:59:49
197,spook,AND!!
111

Boab,

Glasgow 20/12/2007 13:00:53
Good on Clegg. I always feel slightly smug as an atheist until I remember Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot ... we have no more claim to reason than people who follow a religion, they don't all cling to creationism or homophobia - just the noisiest ones!

Still, we could do with a few less Blairs and Dubyas running the world.
112

kimba,

20/12/2007 13:02:00
196.Well lets all start panicing,who cares!
113

kimba,

20/12/2007 13:05:44
205, if you continue to spout your literal sewage,you will have a slander suit arriveing on your doormat,now,at 5'8'' and 14 stone I AM THE CORRECT WEIGHT.
114

Mike J,

US 20/12/2007 13:10:44
It sounds like most of "enlightened" Europe is in agreement. I applaud Clegg; I prefer politicians to be honest about such things, so voters can decide what--if anything--to do about it.
115

Seaforth,

20/12/2007 13:12:22
The correct weight for a small bull elephant, perhaps, but as a human it's what is known as clinical obesity.
116

Scunner,

Aberdeen 20/12/2007 13:15:51
And we don't believe in you!!....Who is this guy anyway? I have never heard of him! The Lib Dems are a joke in Aberdeenshire at present and now they have a no namer in charge they have even less chance.
117

Seaforth,

20/12/2007 13:16:19
http://argville.com/images/funny-pictures/fat-under-dress.jpg
118

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/12/2007 13:18:41
Ayreshire

I was always under the impression that visual/audio stimulus produced evident EEG activity. Are you claiming it doesn't?
119

,

20/12/2007 13:19:19
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120

Eve,

Scotland 20/12/2007 13:24:25
Why should his religious believes matter!!!

Politics and religion should be kept separate!!!

I really don't understand why people like him and others seem to think that mentioning their partners religion gives the message that they are open to others. Personally I see it as them have in a flaw in their relationship when they have to mention whats different about them. Surely in a relationship whats should matter are thing that they have in common and that they respect one another believes. Making such a public speech to me makes me wonder if they are being sincere and NOT saying for publicity.

(like a cretain labour MSP that adimed to singing Rangers songs that Cathlics find insulting BUT she no biggiot cause she married to a cathlioc, I wonder if her husband has read these pises)
121

kimba,

20/12/2007 13:24:34
AYRSHIRE, BRING IT ON PAL, CAN'T WAIT TO BRING YOUR SCOTTISH ARROGANT A-SE DOWN A PEG OR TWO, YOU THINK YOU ARE ALL THAT, BUT YOUR NOTHING BUT A PRECOCIOUS,BILIOUS,MORON, WHO USES BULLYING TACTICS TO SCARE OFF ANY OPPOSITION; WELL NEWS FLASH! IT AIN'T GONNA WORK WITH ME,GROW UP AND STOP ACTING LIKE A NED!
122

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 13:25:30
On this issue Clegg is right, however he is still a 'clone of Cameron' and Cameron himself is a plonker who calls for the defence of the union while also calling for English votes for English laws and reducing Scottish funding. (?) He might not want to be PM of England but we certainly won't vote for him up here.

As another unionist I fully expect Mr Clegg to be a complete irrelevance to Scotland, just like his junior Lib Dem party buddies up here who are still trying to lay a glove on Salmond for obeying the rules and at the same time ignoring the fact their chief ally wee windy Wendy has actually broke the law!
123

kimba,

20/12/2007 13:27:17
SPOOK. you are showing your troll-like features again,pity really,as I thought you were a good banker!
124

kimba,

20/12/2007 13:29:03
Ayrshire please do,as I have a catologue of "abuse" that you have sent me!!
125

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 20/12/2007 13:32:31
#219 The word is magisterial relating to masterful and not monarchy though the FM may have pretensions in that direction
126

Eve,

Scotland 20/12/2007 13:36:45
#209 kimba:
"205, if you continue to spout your literal sewage,you will have a slander suit arriveing on your doormat,now,at 5'8'' and 14 stone I AM THE CORRECT WEIGHT."


You either don't know how to calculate BMI or you don't know what a healthy reading is!!! (It's between 18.5 & 24.9)

Cause when use thouse figures "
5 foot 8 inches = 1.7272 meters" & "14 stone = 88.9041045 kilograms"

I get a BMI of 29.7 which is over weight and nearing the obse which is a BMI of 30. (Unless your body builder!!!)
127

kimba,

20/12/2007 13:39:54
EVE. I weight train twice a week, so am fitter than most women.
128

Seaforth,

20/12/2007 13:40:53
The only catalogue she has is for Greggs pie shop...which she features in on page 7, modelling the bridie!

http://mikeaustin.org/thereturnofscipio/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/obese.jpg
129

Seaforth,

20/12/2007 13:42:33
Heavy shopping does not constitute "weight training". Honestly.
130

kimba,

20/12/2007 13:42:41
spook,sorry,would leave you standing hun,please read my post to eve @ 239.
131

kimba,

20/12/2007 13:45:36
SEAFORTH. would you like to accompany me to "fitness first" every tuesday and friday. so don't get cute,WIMP!
132

kimba,

20/12/2007 13:46:53
AYRSHIRE,keep the insults coming.
133

From land of Nod !,

England 20/12/2007 13:51:16
When was there ever a God?
If, there was one. when did he or she make their appearance?
134

kimba,

20/12/2007 14:09:07
AYRSHIRE,and kimba sends ayrshire best wishes,and a happy new year,will be in Scotland for new year,at aberfoyle, so am really looking forward to it!
135

kimba,

20/12/2007 14:10:25
255,Ayrshire, LOL, no.
136

Richard Lionheart,

20/12/2007 14:12:42
"I'm married to a Catholic and am committed to bringing my children up as Catholics. However, I myself am not an active believer..."

Sounds like normal Lib Dem policy. Don’t know what to believe but will go along with it anyway if it makes somebody happy. That’s why they are called ”Liberal Democrats” There must be a vote in that somewhere?!!
137

kimba,

20/12/2007 14:13:39
Ayrshire. Thank you, I think Scotland is the place to be for New year,or as you sat Hogmanay.
138

Eve,

Scotland 20/12/2007 14:17:19
#239 kimba: Weight trainning twice a week doesn't make you a body builder.

That would be 5-6 days a week with some or alll have at least two training sesions a day to be a successful body builder.

once to twice a week would problely aid weight loss in body fat and around the waist.

BUT to be heavlthy and have BMI such as the top end of the over weight catugrey (24.7) you'd have to do a lot more than weight train twice a week. It would be a start in the right direction.
139

Eve,

Scotland 20/12/2007 14:18:37
#259 Richard Lionheart: Aye it so does!!!!
140

kimba,

20/12/2007 14:20:36
Ayrshire,I may even raise my glass to a Independent Scotland,as long as my beloved England can have hers too!
141

kimba,

20/12/2007 14:23:19
EVE. CHILL, my doc {who is a scot}says I am as fit as a flea. Happy christmas!
142

John N. Gillies,

Glasgow 20/12/2007 14:29:20
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14v1.
Athiests are termed "fools" because they think and act contrary to the word of God as contained in the Holy Scriptures.
The great and fearful Judgement Day awaiteth such that do not repent of their unbelief in this world - "For it is appointed unto men once to die and then the judgement" Hebrews 9v27.
On that day the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords shall judge the whole of mankind.........and also on that day "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" Philippians 2v10,11.

Are you ready my friend, to meet your Maker.
143

kimba,

20/12/2007 14:31:12
266,john. I am if you are!
144

,

20/12/2007 14:37:13
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145

kimba,

20/12/2007 14:38:14
268. Meths, you are obviously not a religious man,but please don't "dis" those who are;happy xmas and a prosperous new year to you and your family.
146

kimba,

20/12/2007 14:39:15
sorry that should be 271.
147

,

20/12/2007 14:41:49
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148

,

20/12/2007 14:42:22
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149

thinking,

Scotland 20/12/2007 14:44:21
#164
'Evolution is measurbale'
Within a species, yes, but not proven changing species.
'Creationism is fantasy'
Only to those who have no belief. Can you prove that there is no God?

#165
'Did God really say "Ye" ?'
No, it was the language spoken by the biblical translators.

#172
'how do you deride the gods and prophets of other religions that you don't believe in (Such as Odin, Zeus, Allah, Mohammed) without using their names?'
I don't deride other people's beliefs

'AS a Christian, does that mean you cannot write Jehovah, Allah or Mohammed. Must be hard to argue against them if you can't use their names?'
I didn't say I didn't use their names - it's how the names are used that is important. Using their names in ordinary conversation is fine, using them as an expletive is not.
150

,

20/12/2007 14:45:10
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151

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/12/2007 14:47:38
Ayreshire
I think you are wrong in thinking an EEG is so unsophisticated.

The EEG records the spontaneous bioelectrical activity of the cerebral cortex to a depth of about 5 mm but does not register the electrical activity of the lower brain stem. Now the more sophisticated functions associated with consciousness (speech, language, complex thought, and imagination for example), are nearer the upper and outer surfaces of the brain, within the range of the EEG.

Any higher brain function would require electrical activity. But this is the whole point.

To quote: "We are not talking about primitive forms of consciousness, but about full-blown, lucid human consciousness that includes 'higher order' thought, memory and volition. It is not to be expected that non-cortical parts of the brain could suddenly take over supposedly highly complex functions of the cortex during clinical death. This would require an instant reorganisation of the brain that from an orthodox neuropsychological point of view may be plausible in infants while the cerebral structures are still developing but not in an older child or adult and never instantly."

To quote from the other article:
"He interviewed 344 heart patients at his hospital in Arnhem, Netherlands who had all clinically died, some for five minutes or longer, before being resuscitated. Of these, 62 — or 18 per cent — reported some ongoing experience after the medical monitors had pronounced them to be dead. Half were aware they were ‘dead’, and 15 had out-of-body experiences where they were aware of the actions of the hospital staff around the body. One patient was able to tell staff who were looking for his dentures that a blond nurse had removed them, and had been put them on a tray on the other side of the room."

Such perception and self conciousness would need higher order brain activity, but no such electrical activity was recorded - which is the whole conundrum.

In the Southhampton University study
Dr Pa
152

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/12/2007 14:48:52
Continued:
In the Southhampton University study
Dr Parnia stated: "During cardiac arrest brainstem activity is rapidly lost. It should not be able to sustain such lucid processes or allow the formation of lasting memories."

But in their small study such lucid processes & lasting memories did occur.

Dr Parnai stated: "Our findings need to be investigated with a much larger study. But if the results are replicated it would imply that the mind may continue to exist after the death of the body, or an afterlife."

"We need a large, definitive study to tell us whether the mind is produced by the brain or whether it is a separate entity. If it is the latter this will have almost unimaginable implications."
153

kimba,

20/12/2007 14:49:17
SPOOK. hope you enjoyed your run, hope you have a great xmas,and a prosperous new year,if your near poppies hotel in aberfoyle on new years eve pop in and I'LL BUY YOU A WEE DRAM!
154

kimba,

20/12/2007 14:52:53
METHS, I ken,niether do I!
155

Neale,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 15:09:01
Lib Dem's leader comes out would be a better headline. I wonder if this will start a flood.
156

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/12/2007 15:19:14
#287 wrote:"synapses trigger rational thought , once those are gone , you're dead mate."

Errr that's the whole point of the conundrum.

Dr Parnai: "Many studies in humans and animals have indicated that brain function ceases during cardiac arrest, thus raising the question of how such lucid, well-structured thought processes with reasoning and memory formation can occur at such a time."

You have zero synaptic electric activity - but lucid well structured thought processes.

#287 wrote:
"282 , give it a break."

Why? Because there is genuine scientific evidence that suggests something that might conflict with your belief?

How utterly pathetic. You may be an atheist - but you are no different from a religious dogmatist who doesn't want to hear something that might contradict his beliefs. Pathetic.
157

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 15:36:49
292
Ayrshire.
I've had lot of near death experiences then:o)
158

John N. Gillies,

Glasgow 20/12/2007 15:37:23
#274 must definately be on "Meths" spirits...........
159

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 15:59:12
299
Apart of course,from those areas of the world where they would love to stone you to death for advocating atheism.

Kansas for one.
160

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 16:00:32
300
Thankyou Flying Spaghetti Monster.
161

John N. Gillies,

Glasgow 20/12/2007 16:07:39
Peter,

If you get a chance there is an interesting article - "The Heavens Declares God's Glory" by Wayne Jackson.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics : Proves existence of God".......on the following weblink.

http://www.bible-infonet.org/FF/articles/apologetics/108_08_09.htm

Regards,
John
162

lac,

Somewhere out there 20/12/2007 16:09:48
Mr Clegg doesn't believe in God but is committed to bringing up his kids in the catholic faith. Well I suppose as long as he pledges at least 1/3 of his income to the catholic church his priest couldn't care less.

Being a libdem I also suppose that he must at least believe in fairies, santa and things like pigs having wings.
163

,

20/12/2007 16:13:02
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164

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/12/2007 16:28:37
#293 wrote:
>>"genuine scientific evidence" - is based on reproducible, statistically sound experimentation, not anecdotal, although interesting, speculation and accounts<<

Parnia's work is found in peer reviewed journals, and has been quoted in other peer reviewed work. It is therefore classed as 'real science'. Neither is it purely anecdotal, since we are talking about objective measurement with an EGG. Of course NDE's are impossible to objectively verify since they are non physical. But if there is evidence of concious lucid thought definitely after clinical death, then this is startling.

Parma believes there is evidence of this because of a proportion of cases where there was 'an ability to ‘see’ and recall specific detailed descriptions of the resuscitation, as verified by resuscitation staff.' This is whilst there was no recordable brain activity - so we are not speaking of anaesthetic type hallucinations here - these occur with brain activity. Or of hallucinations as the brains electrical activity was declining (since these memories of resuscitation were formed AFTER clinical death, not in an hallucination period as electrical activity was declining).

Parnia's own study was 'suggestive', but he himself felt the need of a much larger study. A larger study would be needed to clarify that memories were being formed with zero brain activity (rather than when there was still decaying activity - which is one possible explanation for NDEs). As Parmai noted 'It should not be able to sustain such lucid processes or allow the formation of lasting memories' when this happens. After all higher complex brain function should require electrical activity - and these occur in the upper and outer parts of the brain which would be picked up by EEG.

My own opinion is that NDE's cannot be easily explained away as hallucination as brain activity declines (but I concede that might be an explanation if one can explain the anomalies), and so this line of study
165

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/12/2007 16:30:19
(continued)...needs further looking at.
166

Katty,

Bannockburn 20/12/2007 16:49:05
So Clegg the Great White Hope of the Lib Dems is an Atheist,

Out he comes with this days before Xmas,

Another Nicol, Some people do not know when to keep their big mouth shut. Had he made that clear before his election, he would have clearly lost, what a bunch of snakes, or as Jesus called them VIPERS

Remember Wendy this Xmas
167

John N. Gillies,

Glasgow 20/12/2007 16:52:10
#295 After we die when our soul leaves our body behind and instantaneously enters either (a)into the presence of the Lord to be with Him in Heaven or (b) we go to a lost eternity (does not bear thinking about the latter - but is absolutely true).
#299 It is fatal to take refuge simply in the "majority" - this issue cannot be left to mere chance....check the following webpage for clarification on the existence of God.

http://www.bible-infonet.org/FF/articles/apologetics/108_08_09.htm

168

kimba,

20/12/2007 16:54:41
29,PETER.Does it matter! it's christmas,lets forget our problems and have a bl--dy good time.
169

Miss Jean Brodie,

20/12/2007 17:50:06
Buddahs Belly - full of goodness !
170

Andrew Allan,

Maybe in a vat, or maybe not, who knows 20/12/2007 17:55:19
#309., John N. Gillies.
It is true we all have to die John, but how are you going to prove to me or any other person that we have such a thing as a soul which leaves the body when we die, or even a soul in the first place. I think you will find John that you can’t even prove to yourself what you say, or even the existence of God, try looking up ‘The Brain in a vat’. You say ‘this issue cannot be left to mere chance’, but if you think of what you believe in God, you probably believe that God wasn’t created but is just God, now how could it be possible that God could be mere chance in your head, but everything else can’t? Time is another of those subjects, if you go back to the beginning of what we call time, what comes before that? Time but not as we know it. The web site you ask people to read has no evidence you could prove to be factual.
171

Miss Jean Brodie,

20/12/2007 17:57:19
Enjoy the winter solstice everyone !
172

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 18:13:50
I'm having a flashback to when I was a student...
Anyone want something from the garage?
173

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 18:22:39
329
Maybe something to do with Maxwell's Demon,Ayrshire.
Some convulated christian thinking:
There is a Demon in a scientific law.
If there are demons there must be angels.
God created angels.
God must exist.

This is a good site

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/
174

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 18:23:35
331
Some Munchies?
175

Nikostratos,

20/12/2007 18:29:10
I don't believe in God, says new Lib Dem chief. But he must believe in the devil. Old Satan has given the world the snp you can't ask for more proof of the existence of Evil...
176

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 18:36:33
335
Of course it doesn't Ayrshire,my point.
177

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 18:39:27
2
Absolutely !

Hes gone up in my opinion .He was man enough to admit it also.

Im biased of course.I think its a load of codswallop also, but each to his or her beliefs of course.
178

Sheila in New Mexico,

Las Cruces, New Mexico 20/12/2007 18:43:53
I envy you all. Here in the states an atheist or agnostic needn't bother to run for public office.
179

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 18:45:30
31

Yes

but we do not all acknowledge you Rules!
180

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 18:48:18
47
No idea but she is praying for a miracle so she must believe!
So far she has had Nicol Stephen !
Better the devil you know eh !
181

Nikostratos,

20/12/2007 18:48:50
wasn'ta joke..anyway


182

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 18:56:08
97

Spot on Yolanda!

I think he will do well as leader (In England)
He needs divine intervention to salvage Nicol Stephens mess north of the border however.

But I do acknowledge his ability to do the job is neither improved nor is it reduced by his religion or lack of it.
His honesty is quite refreshing,so maybe he gains a few brownie points ,who knows.
183

Nikostratos,

20/12/2007 18:59:36
Can't diet give up....you sound like my wife you been listening..anyway of to tesco for xmas shopping



http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2007/specials/halloween/dogs/dog_devil5.jpg
184

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 19:09:40
349
Yoda sound like you do.

http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/cm/goodhousekeeping/images/chewy-yoda-sm.jpg
185

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 19:12:34
343

Why dont you run for mayor Sheila and claim God visited you last night in your bed and declared that you should be Mayor!

Mary claimed he got her pregnant when she was still a virgin ,and they swallowed that load of garbage no problem,and your story is more credible than that one,so you should be in with a shout No?
186

Montague Q X Burton,

20/12/2007 19:45:45
"He also unveiled Brian Eno, of Roxy Music, as his adviser on youth affairs. "

What is it about former members of Roxy Music and fringe hatstand politics...and another thing didn't he leave Roxy Music in 1973?
187

WL,

livingston 20/12/2007 19:53:20
What does Lib.Dem. do, import bananas?
188

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 19:59:57
353
Hehe.A 59 year old adviser on youth affairs.

He'll get his afghan coat and platforms on and go down the disco with free forty-fives.
189

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 20:04:53
****Alan the Editor****

To quickly go,to pinch,a "dram" of whisky.

N*P!

Unbelievable.
190

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 20:20:56
357
Aren't they AM2's?

191

Farmernot,

in the byre 20/12/2007 20:21:30
Alex Salmond is God you numpty......believe!!!!!!!!!!!!!
192

Festinalente,

Highland 20/12/2007 20:22:34
Clegg has said he does not have "a closed heart or a closed mind" when thinking about relgion. So,Stalin established a state free from religion,as did Mao, Pol Pot et al. How many million murders and incarcerations without trial in these atheistic Utopias?
193

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 20:43:23
360
Non-believers under Islam do not have "the right to life". Apostasy in Iran is punishable by death.
You can't get elected in the US If you are an atheist.
And the pope was once a Nazi.
Gimme that old time religion eh?
194

Nikostratos,

back from tesco's 20/12/2007 20:47:14
#351

They took this and

http://home.earthlink.net/~cyberresearcher/bunwoman.jpg

mated with this

http://home.thezone.net/~jgillard/barbarb.jpg

then you were be made 'Conan the Librarian™'


http://www.bestforminc.com/images/products/152_1.jpg


this for ayrshire

http://www.chrysalis-business-systems.com/images/wrapped_present_box.jpg
195

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 21:10:26
http://www.petnamezone.com/nikostratos-pet-turtle-name.html

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-05/soft-shelled-turtle.jpg

Whenever you cross swords with Ayrshire;-)

196

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 21:17:40
This needs spread around a bit mair.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7150000/newsid_7153900/7153986.stm?bw=bb∓=wm&news;=1&bbcws;=1
197

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 21:30:22
370
Thanks to Edward post 101 on the salmond thread.
198

Hickory,

US 20/12/2007 21:31:55
Religion is a fun thing to play with for those who stand on the side line. But, in the end, there is no sideline. Just the end. Then you face your maker no matter what you believe.
199

Shamus,

Glasgow 20/12/2007 21:32:26
If he is free from religious indoctrination why is he subjecting his children to the crap!!! Happy New Year.
200

LesD,

Kirkcaldy 20/12/2007 21:35:07
Anyone denying the existence of God is asking for serious trouble.

If you don't accept Jesus as the Son Of The Living God as your saviour you are condeming yourself to Hell.

God is the creator, evolution did not happen, there is zero evidence and if the big bang did happen it didn't happen by against.

John 3:16 For whosever shall believe in me, shall not persish but have everlasting life.
201

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 21:41:37
373
My makers were my mother and father.

Or maybe the flying spaghetti monster.

I can always face a plate of spag bol with some garlic bread,and a nice Chianti.
202

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 21:44:49
376
...And Evangelist Christians for dessert.

Hmm...what kind of serious trouble,LesD?
203

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 21:48:38
376
...Purgatory...?
204

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 21:50:06
376
...zzzzz...
205

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 21:52:08
380
Got your Jesus thongs yet?
206

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 22:12:37
383
Ayrshire
These:-

http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist/429363

207

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 22:16:31
383
Christian bears

http://www.dollsville.com/images/bears/her_mos.jpg
208

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 20/12/2007 22:18:40
#376m Les D and the other God Squadders.

Open you eyes and look around the world. Where ever a god squadder is born they assume their GOD is real and the only one. Everyone elses must be false. Look then at the chances of you being born in the place where they worship the ONE TRUE Creator GOD. People spend their whole lives worshiping the god of their parents. The majority must be wrong.

You are reading nonsense written by dafties in a desert trying with all their heart to explain the world. What is in the Bible that provides any information not available at the time.

In your world the earth is flat. Life your life for your family, live your life for now. Be good because you are good not for reward.

If you need the treat of Hell to keep you honest fine.

Gods come and go. Wake up and read some books. Your god is not even original. Your God is certainly not very nice.

Man created God in his own image. Everyone of gods emotions and motivations are Male.

Let go of your mummy's skirt and stand as a man in the world responsible for your own actions and thoughts.

There is more truth in the News of the World than the bible.
209

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 22:24:58
386
Robbie2 LOL the Jesus Video.

The Godbotherers have went quiet...
210

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 20/12/2007 22:34:19
The man gave an HONEST answer to a straight question and for that we should all be truly grateful there is at least one leader of a political party who is prepared to do that. I wonder what answers we can expect wee Aik Salmond to sidestep - I wonder if he'd be prepared to take a lie detector test whilst in front of the committee? There seems to be plenty nat supporters out there who do believe him so surely why not agree as he's such a cocksureofhimself chiel anyway.
211

,

20/12/2007 22:40:40
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212

Shamus,

Glasgow 20/12/2007 22:42:23
#390. Must be a God after all. 4 nil for the sheepshaggers. Divine intervention if you ask me.
213

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 22:42:30
393
Spook
368 look
214

,

20/12/2007 22:43:21
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215

,

20/12/2007 22:44:40
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216

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 22:45:38
400
Two in one thread...if only I could get out more.
217

,

20/12/2007 22:49:50
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218

Festinalente,

Highland 20/12/2007 22:54:33
Robbie, your figures are at best questionable. If you can quote Steve Wells (Skeptics Bible) you must allow me to quote Professor Alister McGrath ( former molecular biologist now a theologian.)
"In 1954 the CP of the USSR ordered an increased explicit commitment to atheism in its schools. Belief in God had not yet been eliminated by argument or by force. The only option seemed to be an aggressive program of indoctrination of its children. Alarmed at the persistence of religion the Party decreed that 'the the teaching of school subjects(history,literature, the sciences etc) should be saturated with atheism.' In the end all that the program did was to lay the foundations for the massive rebirth of belief in God after the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 1990s." He then goes on to ask,' are we to conclude that atheism is evil or immoral or incredible..? No. The instituional abuse of an idea whether we are talking about atheism, theism or democracy does not discredit it.' Why then all the ranting about peoples' religious beliefs. I co-exist and talk with atheists quite happily without the need for the sort of abusive language against religious people that I find in so many of these posts. Mr Clegg, please note.
219

IainGlasgow,

20/12/2007 22:55:14
Responsible politicians should be dealing in facts, not dogmatic ideology. There is not one single shred of evidence that god exists infact any sane scientific approach would conclusively determine that god does not exist. People may say its based on "faith" but stop and think rationally for just a few minutes. A being capable of creating the entire universe yet religious doctrine would have us believe it has strict rules (let alone even cares) what we say about it, what we do on a sunday, how many people we shag and whether we're married to them (or even if theyre the same gender). Get real!!
220

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 22:57:24
408 How can Science be saturated with atheism, or religion? Perhaps it can only be saturated with science?
221

,

20/12/2007 22:58:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
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222

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 23:06:27
412
You can comment all you want.
Just don't pretend to be somebody else when you do.
223

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 23:12:46
413 sssssh Alex Salmond is on STV
224

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 23:15:18
413 we are Spooks cronies. hehehe I am too young to be a cronie
225

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 23:15:52
414
Whisper...thanks...
226

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 23:21:49
416 psssss, pass the wine
227

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 23:25:35
417
Which bottle?

http://www.lebonvin.co.uk/images/products/lafondchateauneuf.jpg


http://blogs.bootsnall.com/Bucky/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/_42130884_buckfast_close_203.jpg
228

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 23:29:52
418, well being in Ayrshire should be the buckie....
229

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 23:32:25
418 except that Jamieson woman drank it all herself.
230

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 23:34:15
420
Sorry couldn't get my corkscrew to work on it...
231

,

20/12/2007 23:35:17
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232

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 23:35:51
419
Spook-did the wee red box come up?
233

,

20/12/2007 23:39:24
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234

Hickory,

US 20/12/2007 23:39:27
375, 377. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I have no desire to make you belive mine. But, in the end, we will see lads. But, there is no way that good Johnny Black came about by just luck. Someone had a hand in it. Don't you think? I ponder that when I take a taste of it. Any how, I won't swing at you if you don't agree with me.
235

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 23:39:28
422 aye, has a hard top. just smash the top of the bottle
236

,

20/12/2007 23:40:45
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237

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 23:41:11
426 No, it came about by chance. It had 5 billion years to do so.
238

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 23:47:18
426
Hickory
Please read Richard Dawkins'The Blind Watchmaker.
It is only religious fascists that I take a swing at.
239

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 23:48:55
427
Well that worked.

http://gettingworse.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/buckfast_smash1.jpg
240

NovaScotia™,

20/12/2007 23:51:02
431 eeek. I'll lick that up later.
241

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 23:52:42
429
Re the fakie
Do you recognise this?

http://www.joelgoodman.co.uk/allies/images/graeme-white-lightening.jpg
242

Conan the Librarian™,

20/12/2007 23:54:42
433
Hoos Poos! Spartans RULE!
243

,

20/12/2007 23:58:13
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244

Conan the Librarian™,

21/12/2007 00:06:00
437
Aye indeed Spook.Do you think he is getting obsessed with your good self?
But lets be kind to him at Christmas.
He obviously needs us.
245

,

21/12/2007 00:07:57
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246

NovaScotia™,

21/12/2007 00:08:34
439 Yes, and poor Kimba. She was quite sweet today. I think fakey and Kimba may be lonley. We should get them together?

Night all
247

Conan the Librarian™,

21/12/2007 00:11:20
Night All
248

alioopoop1,

Feilding, New Zealand 21/12/2007 02:27:54
My belief is that ANYONE who professes not to believe in God, cannot be trusted.
249

Doh,

21/12/2007 10:18:03
Apparantly if you listen to his speeches backwards he is saying "worship satan".

250

TSynicto the core,

Saltireland 21/12/2007 16:23:16
Thank you, Nick, for removing the Dim-Libs from the political scene. Christians, Muslims and Hebrews who do believe in one God won't forget this in a hurry. More votes for the rest of us.
251

Hickory,

US 21/12/2007 20:29:12
430
Conan
Aye, many have died in the name of religion. It kind'a justfies the phrase "Live by the sword, die by the sword". Seems like the violent ones fall before the ones of kindness. I hold to: "If it abuses me, it is not of my heart. If it abuses you, please don't take it to your heart. If it comforts either of us, it must be of some good." My life has been long and I have met many good men that attach themselves to no religion. But, they express such kindness I feel they aspire to something other than a black abiss in the end.
So is the wanderings of the mind of this old man. Enjoy this Christmas.
252

sandra3mac,

North Pole 23/12/2007 01:53:18
Thank goodness for CONAN THE LIBRARIAN!!
Love your sense of humour.

The best thing about the Scotsman is not the articles but the posts!

Merry Christmas everyone and remember ...if you see someone without a smile- give them one of yours!!
253

Alberto.,

27/02/2008 13:48:42
Doesn't believe in God - so what, perhaps he may be a better person for that, after all one has only to look at the disgraceful state that New Labour has brought the Country down to!

The disgusting and presumably un-Godly like behaviour we are seeing displayed - quite blatantly at the moment,yet I have no doubt, if they were asked if they believed in God - any God, a resounding and overwhelming declaration of their faith and belief would be shouted from the rooftops - mainly because it would be considered as the statement to make 'of the moment!'

I wonder if anyone still really believes in New Labour and any of its utterings - on anything at all?



 

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